Build Time
11-23-2010, 08:08 PM
#1
Build Time
So I want to be able to reliablely run 300whp, I know boost is an option, but but I would prefer an NA build that gets me to 225whp, then boost if possible.
Looking for Ideas, options, and some build direction on this. Want to get started over or just after christmas, so I need to send santa my parts list.
Looking for Ideas, options, and some build direction on this. Want to get started over or just after christmas, so I need to send santa my parts list.
11-23-2010, 08:16 PM
#2
Well 300 WHP N/A is a lot of work and lots of money and even then it's really hard to see those numbers without forced induction. Now 225 whp is a good number to start with. I was in the same boat as you I wanted 250 WHP N/A but after lot's of research it is a number that is pretty high and would cost another $5000 into the motor on top of buying a $3500 motor. Now if your planning to run N/A b18c type R's is a great option another route you might wanna take would be the B20/Vtec it's great on torque and can be tweak to achieve high numbers...if you are debating on boosting well then I would go with a B20b or B18b but if you wanna see where N/A takes you and wanna do it for a cheaper price then the B18c type R then go with the B20 Vtec build and if after you try N/A with that motor you can always boost it after as it is a better motor to boost then the B18c Type R...if money isn't to tight maybe start looking into a k20/k24 swap or just a k20 Type R motor...lot's of option 
11-23-2010, 09:43 PM
#6
Why is it a waste, if I can even get a good base to start with. From anywhere around 200whp or even close to that, it would still leave me room to turbo later. I'm just looking for options.
I don't want to slap a big turbo on a 130hp motor. I'm leaning more towards an N/A motor, just on the fact that turbo anything is going to decrease my reliablitity, IMO.
Worst case I need to remove the turbo setup, I won't go through withdrawal, or feel like I'm back to stock without it.
I don't want to slap a big turbo on a 130hp motor. I'm leaning more towards an N/A motor, just on the fact that turbo anything is going to decrease my reliablitity, IMO.
Worst case I need to remove the turbo setup, I won't go through withdrawal, or feel like I'm back to stock without it.
11-23-2010, 09:47 PM
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Scarborough
Posts: 356
Pretty much because a LOT of the n/a parts you use, aren't gonna be used with your turbo set up (ie. your entire exhaust system). I'm no expert, but from what i've learned, turbo is the most bang for the buck.
11-23-2010, 10:00 PM
#8
Ok, but I want reliablity over bang for buck, not looking for Hi-reving motor, more tq is always better. But when I'm ready to turbo, I want to hit 300whp at a lower psi, rather then needing to turn it up when needed.
Not that it matters, but when its said and done, I want to be able to leave a 2005 g35
Not that it matters, but when its said and done, I want to be able to leave a 2005 g35
11-24-2010, 07:12 AM
#10
This hardly makes sense. If you want it to be reliable you have to choose either N/A or F/I. Reason being is, you will want high compression pistons and different cams for N/A build and low compression pistons and different spec cam for turbo.
The mentioned b20v/type r and other motors all have pros and cons. For turbo application, would just slap in low compression pistons in LS block, get a b16/gsr head and a moderate size turbo.
B20vtec build is a great option but not for such power that you are aiming. RS machine high compression pistons would do you just fine with a vtec head. I remember seeing some 11:1 cpr pistons for b20, and valve reliefs will allow for high lift cam. Making 200-220whp isnt hard nor very expensive. Now where do you go from there? you add a turbocharger to that setup and you might aswell keep a camera under the hood and wait for a hole to appear on the side of the block. Way to get around this is to resleeve the block, get lower compression pistons, 9:1cpr or so, and then add a turbo.
Reaching 300whp mark NA is going to be very very expensive and pointless. Hell if your goal is only 300whp, grab the cheapest b18b you can find, throw in pistons and rods, then one big turbo. You will make that power easily with a gt30-gt32 garrett turbo and mild boost levels, and will always have the ability to turn down the boost.
Oh and forgot to mention the typeR engines. In a sense, you can just drop it in and turbo it right off the bat, it will handle near 300whp with no problem. So its up to you, and your budget to decide what you will do. But keep this in mind, N/A high compression build and boost dont go together.
The mentioned b20v/type r and other motors all have pros and cons. For turbo application, would just slap in low compression pistons in LS block, get a b16/gsr head and a moderate size turbo.
B20vtec build is a great option but not for such power that you are aiming. RS machine high compression pistons would do you just fine with a vtec head. I remember seeing some 11:1 cpr pistons for b20, and valve reliefs will allow for high lift cam. Making 200-220whp isnt hard nor very expensive. Now where do you go from there? you add a turbocharger to that setup and you might aswell keep a camera under the hood and wait for a hole to appear on the side of the block. Way to get around this is to resleeve the block, get lower compression pistons, 9:1cpr or so, and then add a turbo.
Reaching 300whp mark NA is going to be very very expensive and pointless. Hell if your goal is only 300whp, grab the cheapest b18b you can find, throw in pistons and rods, then one big turbo. You will make that power easily with a gt30-gt32 garrett turbo and mild boost levels, and will always have the ability to turn down the boost.
Oh and forgot to mention the typeR engines. In a sense, you can just drop it in and turbo it right off the bat, it will handle near 300whp with no problem. So its up to you, and your budget to decide what you will do. But keep this in mind, N/A high compression build and boost dont go together.
11-24-2010, 10:34 AM
#11
What Martin stated is true no point in building n/a just to change exhaust cams and so forth cheapest way to make big power would be the b18b and slap a turbo on it. If your going for a type r motor plus turbo expect to pay around 8000$ when it's all said and done after all tuning and stuff.
11-24-2010, 12:43 PM
#14
Moderator
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 724
The main problems will be the high compression pistons and giant cams required to make good power in an NA build that will clash and not be optimal or a good match when you add boost.
Basically, if you're building for serious power, you need to decide and commit to building it for NA or boost, not both.
It may work in video games, but it doesn't work in real life. lol
Basically, if you're building for serious power, you need to decide and commit to building it for NA or boost, not both.
It may work in video games, but it doesn't work in real life. lol
11-25-2010, 07:40 PM
#15
Well after spending the last two days going back and forth over this, I've decided to go with a Kseries motor (fingers crossed).
Great base to start with will make my base power numbers to start, and can be boosted if need be. Seen some great dyno sheets with numbers starting from 200whp to 220whp.
Now I need to blow up this motor, so I have a reason to do this swap. lol
Great base to start with will make my base power numbers to start, and can be boosted if need be. Seen some great dyno sheets with numbers starting from 200whp to 220whp.
Now I need to blow up this motor, so I have a reason to do this swap. lol
11-26-2010, 10:59 AM
#17
But I don't see anything easy with those Jswaps, lots of power and torque in them though, just more work then I'm willing to take on. When I have all the parts I'm gonna have the car down for no more then two weeks, at least thats my goal.
Leaning towards a k20a3 to start, and when I have a little more money to play with do a frankenstein k24/k20.
Its possible to make sub-200whp with bolt ons, and the money saved from going k20a3 can go towards a nice turbo.
Price wise a k20a3 longblock is anywere from $300 to $500, a k20a2 will start around $1500.
Add a Kpro, mounts and everything else I should get a decent setup with boost, making more power then then the stock K20a2 at an equavlent cost to what K-tuned charges for one of there basic setups. Wish me luck guys
Leaning towards a k20a3 to start, and when I have a little more money to play with do a frankenstein k24/k20.
Its possible to make sub-200whp with bolt ons, and the money saved from going k20a3 can go towards a nice turbo.
Price wise a k20a3 longblock is anywere from $300 to $500, a k20a2 will start around $1500.
Add a Kpro, mounts and everything else I should get a decent setup with boost, making more power then then the stock K20a2 at an equavlent cost to what K-tuned charges for one of there basic setups. Wish me luck guys
11-26-2010, 04:12 PM
#18
500$ for a j32a3...270hp/258lb-ft of torque.
2 weeks to swap? It shouldn't take more than 3-5 days, that's if you have a job and cant work on it all day/night. Hell if you have time off, 2 days MAX!
http://jdmengineland.com/jdm-2004200...ine-p-136.html
2 weeks to swap? It shouldn't take more than 3-5 days, that's if you have a job and cant work on it all day/night. Hell if you have time off, 2 days MAX!
http://jdmengineland.com/jdm-2004200...ine-p-136.html
11-27-2010, 02:30 AM
#22
And in reality, J swap is the same as K swap. You buy mounts (which I saw for sale for 300$+shipping) etc, the only problem I see is wiring. That would be the only difference. Never even looked into J wiring so I would assume it would be different.
11-27-2010, 12:32 PM
#23
yea......I can do wiring, but..... do I really want to be doing any wiring. The last swap I took on, I choose to extend my harness by 3ft, never again. I just don't have the patience for it.
Kswap is as plug an play as they get, and there will be space left in the bay for boost when I'm ready.
But hey you still might change my mind to a J if your willing to help me wire it up.lol
Kswap is as plug an play as they get, and there will be space left in the bay for boost when I'm ready.
But hey you still might change my mind to a J if your willing to help me wire it up.lol
11-27-2010, 05:54 PM
#24
There's plenty to do outside my room but I choose not to!
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Hammer!
Posts: 8,166
you can't build an N/A motor and just toss boost on it. I built my motor for n/a and to how i wanted it and when ppl ask me if and when i'm going to boost it, i ask them if they're retarded. it's like building a house and once its finished you turn it in to a garage.
the first Q you should ask yourself is "boost or N/A?" none of this "and if", "maybe later", "just for now" bullshit. pick one and build. plain and simple.
if you want a decent starting off point, start with a k20. 200hp off the bat and they take well to boost. leave it untouched until you're ready to boost. any parts like an intake is just gonna be a waste of money. 300hp can be had easily.
the first Q you should ask yourself is "boost or N/A?" none of this "and if", "maybe later", "just for now" bullshit. pick one and build. plain and simple.
if you want a decent starting off point, start with a k20. 200hp off the bat and they take well to boost. leave it untouched until you're ready to boost. any parts like an intake is just gonna be a waste of money. 300hp can be had easily.
11-27-2010, 06:36 PM
#25
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 383
you can't build an N/A motor and just toss boost on it. I built my motor for n/a and to how i wanted it and when ppl ask me if and when i'm going to boost it, i ask them if they're retarded. it's like building a house and once its finished you turn it in to a garage.
the first Q you should ask yourself is "boost or N/A?" none of this "and if", "maybe later", "just for now" bullshit. pick one and build. plain and simple.
if you want a decent starting off point, start with a k20. 200hp off the bat and they take well to boost. leave it untouched until you're ready to boost. any parts like an intake is just gonna be a waste of money. 300hp can be had easily.
the first Q you should ask yourself is "boost or N/A?" none of this "and if", "maybe later", "just for now" bullshit. pick one and build. plain and simple.
if you want a decent starting off point, start with a k20. 200hp off the bat and they take well to boost. leave it untouched until you're ready to boost. any parts like an intake is just gonna be a waste of money. 300hp can be had easily.
11-27-2010, 07:12 PM
#26
I understand what you guys are saying, but given the fact that I can build a simple N/A and then boost .....why not? Its not like I'm saying I want to build a motor that I can redline at 9k all day everyday, just looking at N/A to start so I can have a good base for reliablity. It doesn't always have to be black and white.
I want to build my house so it doesnt blow down in a thunderstorm, keeps me warm in the winter, with enough of a backyard to put a pool in when I'm ready.
Maybe I should call it a stock build till I can boost safetly.
So maybe I should say I plan to turbo eventually, but before that happens I want to drive N/A for as long as I continue to be happy with it.
I want to build my house so it doesnt blow down in a thunderstorm, keeps me warm in the winter, with enough of a backyard to put a pool in when I'm ready.
Maybe I should call it a stock build till I can boost safetly.
So maybe I should say I plan to turbo eventually, but before that happens I want to drive N/A for as long as I continue to be happy with it.
11-27-2010, 07:37 PM
#27
Hold on, what do you mean by build?
Intake and exhaust is not what most people think when you say "build". If you plan on putting cams in or high compression pistons, those will NOT get along with turbo. Now head work would be beneficial for both n/a and f/i applications. Like porting the head, getting bigger valves and overall increasing the volumetric efficiency, but keep in mind turbo and non-turbo cams aren't the same so you may just need to replace them later.
But again, if you wanna "build" it for n/a by throwing intake and exhaust on it, might aswell prep for future and go with 2.75" exhaust all the way back. A cheap intake to just eliminate the hassle with stock box and different chasis issue,..go ahead, but that's not a "build".
Intake and exhaust is not what most people think when you say "build". If you plan on putting cams in or high compression pistons, those will NOT get along with turbo. Now head work would be beneficial for both n/a and f/i applications. Like porting the head, getting bigger valves and overall increasing the volumetric efficiency, but keep in mind turbo and non-turbo cams aren't the same so you may just need to replace them later.
But again, if you wanna "build" it for n/a by throwing intake and exhaust on it, might aswell prep for future and go with 2.75" exhaust all the way back. A cheap intake to just eliminate the hassle with stock box and different chasis issue,..go ahead, but that's not a "build".
11-27-2010, 09:54 PM
#28
Wow I'm sorry guys I haven't given you guys enough info to go with my silly questions/statements.
I will be building the motor with a few treats inside, depending on which kseries I pick up. But am looking for compression numbers between 9:8:1 to 11:0:1(stock on the RSX type S) but will only go this high if I can find someone Amazing to tune it.
Also understand that I will need to have different cams for either set up. But swapping cams would be a weekend job. If I get the a3 then engine work will be done on a k24frank that I could take my time building. If I can get a k24 then just head work, retainers, spings, cams, mild P&P
2.75 is too small, would rather run 3" from the start so its there when I do turbo, speaking of which I did notice a TD04 for sale......
I will be building the motor with a few treats inside, depending on which kseries I pick up. But am looking for compression numbers between 9:8:1 to 11:0:1(stock on the RSX type S) but will only go this high if I can find someone Amazing to tune it.
Also understand that I will need to have different cams for either set up. But swapping cams would be a weekend job. If I get the a3 then engine work will be done on a k24frank that I could take my time building. If I can get a k24 then just head work, retainers, spings, cams, mild P&P
2.75 is too small, would rather run 3" from the start so its there when I do turbo, speaking of which I did notice a TD04 for sale......
11-28-2010, 01:22 PM
#30
There's plenty to do outside my room but I choose not to!
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Hammer!
Posts: 8,166
save yourself some money and just buy a turbo'd car. cams aren't just a weekend job if you have supporting mods and a tune to go with it. you can't just slap in a set of cams and expect a difference when the map is untouched. you're buying n/a cams only to replace them with f/i cams later. does that make sense? no, it's a waste of money. so essentially you doing something only to undo it later and do something different. like i said before, if you want good n/a power before you turbo, just drop in a stock k20 (200hp) then turbo it once you've got your ---- together.
i give up, there's no getting through to him.
i give up, there's no getting through to him.
11-29-2010, 02:42 AM
#31
There are a few stock rsx type s, which run 11:0:1 compression that are turbo'd on untouched internals. I've been reading for days on some of them over at k20.org. Granted I haven't seen many running crazy amounts of boost trying to see how much it'll take before detonation.
And yea I mentioned the TD05, as I might want it...but I'm not telling you anything till I know I can pick it up without the girlfriend killing me for buying it.
Buff4Prez Yo, I will run stock cams untill I can find a set I want. I understand that going this route will force me to pay for somethings twice. Because not everything will work with both setups and I understand that. But I'm building this for me, and a week, a month, or even a year later I might decide I don't want to be boosted. I want to make sure I have everything I need to go back to n/a, and thats reason number 15 on my list, do you really want the other 14, lol.
And yes I could just go buy a turbo'd car, but I won't because I would rather build one as thats half the fun of owning it. I already know I won't get a quarter of what I put into this car. But the quarter I will get back will be filled with great memories, friendship, and good times, that will last me a lifetime.
First rounds on me, next ones on you Buff
And yea I mentioned the TD05, as I might want it...but I'm not telling you anything till I know I can pick it up without the girlfriend killing me for buying it.
Buff4Prez Yo, I will run stock cams untill I can find a set I want. I understand that going this route will force me to pay for somethings twice. Because not everything will work with both setups and I understand that. But I'm building this for me, and a week, a month, or even a year later I might decide I don't want to be boosted. I want to make sure I have everything I need to go back to n/a, and thats reason number 15 on my list, do you really want the other 14, lol.
And yes I could just go buy a turbo'd car, but I won't because I would rather build one as thats half the fun of owning it. I already know I won't get a quarter of what I put into this car. But the quarter I will get back will be filled with great memories, friendship, and good times, that will last me a lifetime.
First rounds on me, next ones on you Buff
01-30-2011, 02:39 AM
#32
Well I've started collecting parts, but I can't go the route I wanted to just yet because my moms truck desided to eat the transmission a yr & a half after a rebuild. So instead of waiting another 4 months to save up the money to do the swap I want to do, I'm going to take what I have and do an lsvtec swap for now.
Some new goodies
Some new goodies
02-10-2011, 05:12 PM
#34
So I've been collecting parts, and will have a few more pics for you guys this weekend of some new stuff I'm picking up....But, and I know theres always a but.
I've found two blocks I could use to complete my build. Rather then using my stock ls bottom, one is a complete '99 B20($399) the other is a Bare B18($60). I have purchased the GSR head, complete IM, Header, complete Wiring harness, ECU, & valve cover. So question is where do I go from here??????
1. (Most Expensive)Pick up the B18, source some Forged internals(low Compression), and prepare for some boost(turbo'd next winter).
2. (Modest cost)Pick up the B20 slap the head on and enjoy the ride.
3. (Penny Pincher)Source what I need to swap it to my LSblock, swap with the motor in the car, and run with it.
I've found two blocks I could use to complete my build. Rather then using my stock ls bottom, one is a complete '99 B20($399) the other is a Bare B18($60). I have purchased the GSR head, complete IM, Header, complete Wiring harness, ECU, & valve cover. So question is where do I go from here??????
1. (Most Expensive)Pick up the B18, source some Forged internals(low Compression), and prepare for some boost(turbo'd next winter).
2. (Modest cost)Pick up the B20 slap the head on and enjoy the ride.
3. (Penny Pincher)Source what I need to swap it to my LSblock, swap with the motor in the car, and run with it.
Last edited by 3sgte@daspeedof; 02-11-2011 at 12:31 AM.
02-10-2011, 06:26 PM
#35
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 383
I say go with the modest cost. Pick up the b 20 put the head on maybe some minor upgrades like a victor 8 manifold and while the head is of get it machined and what not. I don't know exactly what though lol. get it all put together a nice tune and while your enjoying that source the internals and turbo kit.
02-10-2011, 07:44 PM
#36
I say go with choice 1.1. Since there is no 2. Lol.
It would be a big difference and you can have fun right away without spending lots of money. That motor just stock will feel a whole lot better. From there you can decide if you wanna build it for boost or b20 vtec which is a great choice as well.
It would be a big difference and you can have fun right away without spending lots of money. That motor just stock will feel a whole lot better. From there you can decide if you wanna build it for boost or b20 vtec which is a great choice as well.
02-10-2011, 09:21 PM
#37
Well that's easy.... Choice 3! Just because I had a B20 engine in my EF and LOVE it! She had a lot more power than I thought. Its cheap, fast, reliable and putting on a VTEC head on it will be simple...if the power of the B20/B18 doesn't thrill you anymore.
I don't think you how much money it takes to properly build a turbo engine. From experiance... I gave up lol! Cheap turbo build will net you good power, but you will have oil leaks, oil consumption, boost leaks, ECU problems, wiring nightmares and so on. A proper build will give you great power... But some headaches will still be there. You will always have relaiblility issues, oil consumption ect.... You wanna do it right? Make sure you have money to spend on quailty parts/labour.
I don't think you how much money it takes to properly build a turbo engine. From experiance... I gave up lol! Cheap turbo build will net you good power, but you will have oil leaks, oil consumption, boost leaks, ECU problems, wiring nightmares and so on. A proper build will give you great power... But some headaches will still be there. You will always have relaiblility issues, oil consumption ect.... You wanna do it right? Make sure you have money to spend on quailty parts/labour.
02-11-2011, 01:19 PM
#39
Ok, so I was up till about 5am doing some reading and I think I have decided what route I'm taking.....
Thanks for you advise guys, look out for some pics later this weekend.
Hey Ryan... I heard through the grapevine that you have a parts hookup, can I get the hookup too!!
Looking to borrow an engine stand, if anyone on here has one. Please send me a PM.
I have to say...Many many thanks to everyone on here I know I wouldn't even be attempting this if it wasn't for all of you guys and girls teasing me with your cars, and giving me advise, input, and opinions.... I know I can be very stuborn about things but I really do appreaciate it all.
Thanks for you advise guys, look out for some pics later this weekend.
Hey Ryan... I heard through the grapevine that you have a parts hookup, can I get the hookup too!!
Looking to borrow an engine stand, if anyone on here has one. Please send me a PM.
I have to say...Many many thanks to everyone on here I know I wouldn't even be attempting this if it wasn't for all of you guys and girls teasing me with your cars, and giving me advise, input, and opinions.... I know I can be very stuborn about things but I really do appreaciate it all.