MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

So, the next step is looking into a conversion for my b20...does anyone know if there is a difference going with b17,b16,b18c, etc power wise? what are the pros & cons of each head...im looking to spend up to $500, but neccesarily if the increase in power is minimal, there are some b16a around the 200-350 range, but if i go with a gsr head, or possible a type r head, what are the advantages, this will go boost over winter..mildy built with cam, cam gears etc..

any help is appreciated! thanks!

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

This blackworks conversion kit includes the following:

VTEC CONVERSION KITS:
- BlackWorks now offers a Full Vtec Conversion kit for people that want to use an LS/VTEC or B20/VTEC set-up.
- BlackWorks is one of the easiest and most complete way to supply oil to the head without any machining required


The kit includes:
1. BlackWorks Vtec Conversion Sandwich Plate with a -6AN fitting for the plate and head.
2. BlackWorks -6AN steel braided teflon hose for oil supply
3. BlackWorks Vtec Conversion Dowels for proper alignment for the head to block without machining
4. BlackWorks 1/8 NPT tap and plug for the oil port in the head
5. BlackWorks worked factory head gasket in 81MM, 84MM size's only. Dowel holes opened for proper installation
this is a " NO Machining kit " we mean that there is no reason that anyone cannot do this kit in their own garage, with the right tools and skills.


is this all i need aside from a vtec ecu, and distributor??

MPR

B17 (DA GSR) and b16a heads are virtually identical but have slightly less agressive cams than a b16a2 head.

A b18c5(ITR) head is a mildly ported version of a b16a2 head with yet even more agressive cams than the b16a2 head.

The b18c1 (DC GSR) head is similar yet different than all the others. The cams are between the b16a2 and ITR in agressiveness. This head yields a little bit higher compression than the others due to a smaller combustion chamber/quench volume. Intake/exhaust manifolds for this head I believe are exclusive, meaning they don't bolt up to the other b-series heads.

Exhaust/intake manifolds for b17,b16a, b16a2 and b18c5 (ITR) are interchangeable.

Any of the newer gen heads are generally favoured for their more agressive cams. The rest is up to you. Power-wise, in stock trim, the ITR, B16A2 or GSR heads will make fairly equally good power, ITR/GSR probably a bit more. The GSR head will require an aftermarket intake manifold to make decent power. The stock GSR intake with the secondary butterflies is just a restriction.

If I have included any incorrect info, please feel free to correct me.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

yeah i think ima jus go with the b16a2 head, and what i posted above in the vtec conversion kit, is everything there i need? minue ecu and dizzy?

thanks!

92blackda

iTrader: (1)

cometic head gasket,vtec water pump,vtec timing belt,vtec oil pump, would be nice to

MPR

^Yes. You absolutely NEED the vtec water pump and timing belt. Good call.

The non-vtec water pumps in the b18a/b and b20's cavitate at higher rpm operation (7000rpm+), starving the top end of the motor of fresh coolant right where and when it needs it most. The vtec water pumps turn a little slower ensuring the proper flow of coolant is maintained at high rpm operation.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

yeah ill get oem belt, pump, and oil pump, but i think the blackworks conversion kit includes gasket...

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

So this is a question.

If I do the B20 Vtec set up before I go boost, how much extra power am I getting?! Because all in all, the whole Conversion is going to cost me about $1000. Is it really worth it??!?!

And when I tune it, do I go Vtec at XXXRPM and then spool at a higher RPM?!?

I have no idea..

MPR

You should make up your mind now with what you want to do. This will help you determine the best route.

If you do want to go boost (turbo), it's better to go with a b18a/b block because they are stronger. An LS-vtec (b18a/b with vtec head) can still make good power (between 160-170whp+ NA depending on which head you use and other various factors). B20-vtec should make 180-190whp NA. Is it worth it to go b20 for 15-20 extra whp NA and then be limited when you add a turbo? Or would you rather make a healthy 170ish whp NA and then be able to make a lot more when you add a turbo.

Also, if you are serious about going turbo, you need to think about a power goal and budget. Anything over about 250whp and you'll want forged rods and pistons.

With regards to vtec and boost; you'll want to install a set of adjustable cam gears so you can dial in the cam timing for boost (basically reducing the overlap). This is one instance where lowering vtec engagement can actually be beneficial because the turbo is forcing the air in, and by increasing the lift (distance the valves open) will allow more air in. An experienced tuner will know generally what is the most optimal setting for vtec engagement and it will partially depend on how much power you want to make and what size/type of turbo you use. Most turbo setups on vtec engines start making boost before vtec engages (usually anywhere between 3500 and 5000rpm depending on the turbo). You want to choose a turbo that will give you the power you want to make, and efficiently be able to provide enough airflow at your max rpm limit (~7500rpm for an LS or b20 vtec on stock internals), but also give you the widest power-band. From what I've seen, a lot of turbo setups out there have turbos that are too large for the application. Partially because people generally think "bigger is better". Other things to consider is what kind of use this car is going to see most. Stree, drag, road course... Your setup should be designed around you power goal, budget and vehicle use.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

yah i see what ur saying, im going to pick up my b16 head tomorrow, and will be going with some turbo cams (havent had any luck sourcing any) and adjustable cam gears, possibly AEM..valvetrain upgrade is an option, and if i go boost it will be on the lower end..maybe 6-7 pounds, so i have been told the stock bottom end is ok, though je pistons and eagle rods have caught my curiousity..and this is def not a DD...i have a company car, nd this would probably see 50-100km a week if that, and only in summer lol..so im takin my time and budget wise..to be honest, its getting stretched more and more day by day lol...i just want to make around 220-250 whp after boost..and i have been told it def attainable..

MPR

If you're looking for 220-250whp, you don't need turbo cams. The stock cams will make a lot of power with boost. So don't worry about turbo cams or valve train upgrades. You can easliy meet those power goals and keep it under 7500rpm (which I recemmend if you still with stock internals). Also don't choose a boost setting. You choose how much power you want to make and depending on what turbo you end up using and how well it is tuned, that will determine how much boost is required to make the power to want to make. 250whp from an ls-vtec will require between 10-15psi boost, depending on the setup.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

but if i choose eagle rods je pistons, some cams, cam gears, valvetrain upgrade what kind of power can i achieve? because even though the 250 is my goal..im gettin more and more attracted to more power..so its def an option ..

MPR

You can go quite high in power with the stock cams. Forced induction is a wonderful thing! Just turn up the boost and make sure the fuel system, crank/rods/pistons can handle it and keep the rpm's conservative, you can make lots of power. I'd say north of 300-350whp and you could start to benefit from turbo cams. Just helps it make a little more power with a bit less boost, vs stock cams. It's easier and cheaper to run more boost to get more power vs changing the cams. Though you would still need better valve springs.

Let me just make note of one other thing. Remember this is a fairly light weight FWD car. Power to weight goes a long way. In other words, you don't need mountains of power to make the car quick. Also there is a point with any FWD car where the power can no longer be used. For cars like civics and tegs, 250whp is PLENTY. Even with an LS tranny you'll find 1st, 2nd and even 3rd gear will become pretty much useless. Useable power is more fun and more effective than dyno-queen power (imo). After running autocross and various other forms of racing over the years, I don't see the point in going ape-shat on power if you can't use the power.

Just a few things to think about when deciding how much power you want/need.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

makes sense, well i bought ITR cams and skunk2 cam gears last night for a great price, so it will be part of my set up and i have been told since its an OEM camshaft i dont need to upgrade valvetrain to attain my goals, but if it will add more power and reliability i would def do it..i have seen brian crower/blkworks setups for$700-$1000 which is ok..

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

I have a b16 tranny..

MPR

^That should all work fine for 250whp.

Yeah, with a short-ratio b16 tranny, 1st and 2nd gear will be a complete write-off with 250whp...hehe.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

so what if i do the internals (which i am really considering) i could rev up to? and with the b20 bottom end with a block guard, forged pistons, and eagle rods, would it be safe to do so?

boost obsessed

With internals I wouldn't rev past 9k, also if you decide on a b20 bottom end use a b18c1/5 girdle to give it a bit more strength. Technically your rev limit should stay around stock vtec limit which is like 8200 after that you could start floating valves, if you don't make power past 8200 or whatever there's no point in adding stress to the motor for no reason, if you really want to rev past stock do valvetrain

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

yeah, i dont want to be revving past anyways, just so i knw what my limits are lol..ya b20 already in, b16 head, i am not doin ne major racing or nuttin, just a teg to boot on the weekends..not much use at all...

MPR

Revving an engine even 500rpm higher, will actually put more stress on the internals compared to adding boost. Those parts are flying around in there at ridiculous velocities and any increase in rpm exponentially increases the stress significantly.

Boost increases cylinder/cumbustion pressures, but the added stress that is a result of that is nowhere near the level caused by increased rpm. This is why I said if you go with boost, keep the rpms conservative and you can still make gobbs of power reliably.

When it comes to boost, it's the heat created by the combustion of the much more dense air/fuel being crammed in the cylinder. Proper air/fuel ratio control is key to producing good reliable power. Even still good tuning can only do so much. Heat is an unavoidable by-product of combustion. The more powerful the combustion, the more heat is produced. Thus the more power you make the more heat is produced. Prolonged operation under these conditions can cause the pistons to melt regardless of how well the engine is tuned. So eventhough you can have a strong reliable turbo build on stock internals, some descretion is needed in how you drive it. As long as you're not at full throttle all the time and for long periods of time at once (like a 30second+ flat-out highway run, every day, over and over) it should be fine and last no problem. Forged rods/pistons significantly increase the resistance to these severe heat conditions and will allow the engine to handle producing more power, reliably. But they are not completely necessary for your power goals.

With a proper turbo setup, there is really no need to rev the snot out of the engine. Properly match the turbo to your engine size and the rpm at which you want peak hp (slightly below or at the limiter), and it will be fun, fast and reliable.

MALICE85

iTrader: (23)

yeah i will never be driivng this car like that day to day...its far from a dd and would never be pushin it to its limits..yeah i have heard my bottom end can handle the power, but for extra couple hundred( not really lol ) and piece of mind im going to get pistons and rods..