not your typical swap
07-22-2010, 12:44 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 383
not your typical swap
so i just wanted to know everyones opinions on an engine swap into a 1990 integra
my current motor is a b16a (sir motor) and over the winter a plan on dropping large amount of my savings into it lol.
so first thing that came to mind
b18c
pros
type r motor
reliable
mods from my current motor can be swapped
just drops right in
cons
im not quite sure but arent engine parts for a type r more expensive?
h22 (jdm version)
pros
hella torque
more bhp than a type r??
doesnt burn alot of oil like a h22a
cons
gonna need a mounting kit
still gonna burn some oil
mods from current motor will not transfer
alot of mechanical problems
f22b i may have gotten that wrong but the euro type r (blue top)
pros
very rarely seen
a bit more bhp than a jdm type r(or so im told)
cons
bang for the buck (is it really worth it)?
hard to find one at a good price.
not as much torque as a h22
and just for fun
jdm 4g63t cyclone
pros
alot of potential
unique
turboed
cons
gonna be a crazy *** job to drop that into my teg
not even gonna think about a k20 swap. to much money and work.
i was also thinking about maybe turboing my sir motor but that would mean i would have to build my block? right? will it still be good for a daily driver? not everyday but more than just on the weekends
correct me if i am wrong
i did some research on this but my knowwledge isnt that great yet still learning.
add any info that you wish
thanks in advance
my current motor is a b16a (sir motor) and over the winter a plan on dropping large amount of my savings into it lol.
so first thing that came to mind
b18c
pros
type r motor
reliable
mods from my current motor can be swapped
just drops right in
cons
im not quite sure but arent engine parts for a type r more expensive?
h22 (jdm version)
pros
hella torque
more bhp than a type r??
doesnt burn alot of oil like a h22a
cons
gonna need a mounting kit
still gonna burn some oil
mods from current motor will not transfer
alot of mechanical problems
f22b i may have gotten that wrong but the euro type r (blue top)
pros
very rarely seen
a bit more bhp than a jdm type r(or so im told)
cons
bang for the buck (is it really worth it)?
hard to find one at a good price.
not as much torque as a h22
and just for fun
jdm 4g63t cyclone
pros
alot of potential
unique
turboed
cons
gonna be a crazy *** job to drop that into my teg
not even gonna think about a k20 swap. to much money and work.
i was also thinking about maybe turboing my sir motor but that would mean i would have to build my block? right? will it still be good for a daily driver? not everyday but more than just on the weekends
correct me if i am wrong
i did some research on this but my knowwledge isnt that great yet still learning.
add any info that you wish
thanks in advance
07-22-2010, 06:48 AM
#3
the euro blue top you are referring to is the f20b. Great motor for turbo application.
As David asked, what is your budget? Do you want to go all motor or forced induction? For all motor either h22 or b20v. Displacement is the key. If turbo i would go for either b18v or f20b. Now getting the h/f series in is a complete pain, having absolutely no room to work on it. Even in a prelude i couldn't take the harmonic balancer off while engine is in the car, in integra, you will have to sacrifice your power steering. The h/f series are just royal pain, i put f20b together just this week and installed it in a prelude and honestly, after taking it apart, i would not want this motor. So many thing that can go wrong..i would rather not risk doing anything to it. Parts are also harder to find.
If you got money and dont really care then b18c 98+ spec. It had more usable torque compared to 96 type r, comes with a very well built head and all it needs is a snail. But again this will get very pricey. Keep in mind the ITR transmission, though it has pros such as the dual friction synchros but the final drive is not so pleasant for every day driving on the hwy.
If i had unlimited funds my choice would be a darton block with a gsr head on boost. Or at least a re-sleeved b20 with gsr head and also turbo'ed.
But that's just my opinion
As David asked, what is your budget? Do you want to go all motor or forced induction? For all motor either h22 or b20v. Displacement is the key. If turbo i would go for either b18v or f20b. Now getting the h/f series in is a complete pain, having absolutely no room to work on it. Even in a prelude i couldn't take the harmonic balancer off while engine is in the car, in integra, you will have to sacrifice your power steering. The h/f series are just royal pain, i put f20b together just this week and installed it in a prelude and honestly, after taking it apart, i would not want this motor. So many thing that can go wrong..i would rather not risk doing anything to it. Parts are also harder to find.
If you got money and dont really care then b18c 98+ spec. It had more usable torque compared to 96 type r, comes with a very well built head and all it needs is a snail. But again this will get very pricey. Keep in mind the ITR transmission, though it has pros such as the dual friction synchros but the final drive is not so pleasant for every day driving on the hwy.
If i had unlimited funds my choice would be a darton block with a gsr head on boost. Or at least a re-sleeved b20 with gsr head and also turbo'ed.
But that's just my opinion
07-22-2010, 08:29 AM
#4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 383
havent really come up with abudget yet.
i was thinking about boost.
would boosting a b16a be any good?
power goals im just looking to break around 220hp.
how much would a darton block with a gsr head on boost run?
i was thinking about boost.
would boosting a b16a be any good?
power goals im just looking to break around 220hp.
how much would a darton block with a gsr head on boost run?
07-22-2010, 08:54 AM
#5
Moderator
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 724
You could make 250whp easy on stock internals, boosting your b16 and save a lot of money. No need to swap if all your after is 220whp.
B16a vs B18c: They are visually the same motor. Same block, different crank, rods and pistons. Heads are near identical but the type-R has some mild port work from the factory, different cams and double vlave springs. Intake manifolds are slightly different but similar design. B18c has larger tb. B18c has factory 4-1 header with 2-3/8" collector. Both have oil squirters and both have crank girdles.
B16a vs B18c: They are visually the same motor. Same block, different crank, rods and pistons. Heads are near identical but the type-R has some mild port work from the factory, different cams and double vlave springs. Intake manifolds are slightly different but similar design. B18c has larger tb. B18c has factory 4-1 header with 2-3/8" collector. Both have oil squirters and both have crank girdles.
07-22-2010, 09:01 AM
#6
Don't throw out the K series idea either just because you think it is expensive. You can buy a k20a from a Type R Integra (RSX) from Japan.. they are only about 4-6k with transmission.. so about the same price range now as a B18C5 that your looking at, and it's an amazing motor.
For cost.. I'd go with f20b over h22.. though as stated there are less parts and its something you should probably consider.. that being said my choices to help you pick would be k20a or f20b. :P'
Those are my opinions.. I just like to be a little different as well.. Good luck with whatever you choose!
For cost.. I'd go with f20b over h22.. though as stated there are less parts and its something you should probably consider.. that being said my choices to help you pick would be k20a or f20b. :P'
Those are my opinions.. I just like to be a little different as well.. Good luck with whatever you choose!
07-22-2010, 12:22 PM
#7
Regarding to martins post above I have the type r motor and I'm pleased with it. But as he stated they are not so great for daily driving they burn way to much gas. And as for the 96 and 98 spec there really is not much difference. They were tested on tracks and 1/4 mile times the 98 spec beat the 96 spec by .002 of a second. And the 96 spec has a better 60ft time. But this all goes back to the driver really but I still haven't found the difference between the two to be that great.
07-23-2010, 03:36 AM
#9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 383
ahaha 500+whp
thats way to much for a near daily driver.
the only reason i didnt like the k motor (its still an amazing engine) is that there are sooo many modifications you need to do to make it fit.
yea ive read that between the 96 spec and 98 spec is a minimal difference.
THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR IMPUT
its very appreciated. i love talking about cars i always learn so much.
so turboing my stock block with stock internals how much psi do you guys think is safe.
probably around 6-9psi right?
im just guesstimating but boosting my stock block would cost around 2-3 thousand?
how much bhp would i be up to?
heres a list of what a parts list for turboing my b16. please correct it if im wrong just stole it from honda tech lol
TURBO BASIC FAQ:
Firstly, an exhaust manifold comes from an NA motor, so you'll need a turbo manifold. They come in many forms, Ram horn, top mount, log manifold, etc... Log manifold is by far the cheapest and it spools really quickly -- plus it's quite reliable if build right the first time. Here's what else you'll need for your car:
Turbocharger: Pick which size and trim turbo is gonna work best for your application and goals. A regular T3 turbo is usually good for 250WHP, a t3/t4 up to 400WHP, and a t4 400+ WHP... I'd recommend a ball-bearing garrett turbo, a nicely sized t3/t4 turbo, not too large or too small TRIM/AR size.
Downpipe: Again must be custom for your turbo/manifold choice. A flex pipe and o2 bung are nice to have while creating a downpipe -- although not necessary.
Wastegate: Choose a wastegate size (also what psi spring you'd like to run) according to application such as amount of air flow and psi from turbo.. This is if you have a turbo that's externally wastegate powered..
Intercooler: Choose either a FMIC (Front Mount InterCooler) or Side Mount Intercooler. FMIC is the only way to go really for efficient cooling..
Blow off valve: This is actually an optional (but very recommended part). Doesnt really matter which one you choose. Pick a sound you like. Some people like to use ebay or cheap BOV's, but if it fails, you can hurt your turbo -- so don't really cheap out.
Fuel Management: One of the most important parts on your turbocharged car. I would highly suggest running a programmable chipped ecu or standalone device. I'd suggest Hondata or Crome..
Fuel Pump : You will probably need an upgraded fuel pump to support the added fuel consumption. Can be either internal or external -- I recommended the Walbro 2550LPH hi pressure fuel pump kit from injected-performance.com on H-T's marketplace for sponsors
Injectors : To support added air induction, more fuel is need... hence bigger injectors. Buy size according to application.
Map Sensor: Stock maps can only read up to ~10.63 psi, if you plan to go higher upgrade to a 2bar or 3bar map sensor.
Intercooler Piping: You can buy a ic piping kit, but usally will always take some modification to fit your exact application.. I believe ebay has some kits that have flanges made for the greddy BOV's for around $150 shipped
Couplers/t-bolts: You will need silicone couplers to bind the two intercooler pipes together as well as t-bolts -- I don't recommend screw clamps for anything other than for your intake pipes for your custom Short Ram
Oil drain/feed lines: Every turbo needs oil, so you must buy an oil feed and drain line kit. Stainless Steel lines are HIGHLY recommended. Rubber lines will get hot and can/will burst.
Vacuum Manifold: Not required but recommended to help organize vacuum lines and allow for good vacuum sources. I'd use Golden Eagle's Vacuum manifold.
Gauges: although not required, it's highly recommend so you can keep some status of motor operation. boost/oil pressure highly recommended
thats way to much for a near daily driver.
the only reason i didnt like the k motor (its still an amazing engine) is that there are sooo many modifications you need to do to make it fit.
yea ive read that between the 96 spec and 98 spec is a minimal difference.
THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR IMPUT
its very appreciated. i love talking about cars i always learn so much.
so turboing my stock block with stock internals how much psi do you guys think is safe.
probably around 6-9psi right?
im just guesstimating but boosting my stock block would cost around 2-3 thousand?
how much bhp would i be up to?
heres a list of what a parts list for turboing my b16. please correct it if im wrong just stole it from honda tech lol
TURBO BASIC FAQ:
Firstly, an exhaust manifold comes from an NA motor, so you'll need a turbo manifold. They come in many forms, Ram horn, top mount, log manifold, etc... Log manifold is by far the cheapest and it spools really quickly -- plus it's quite reliable if build right the first time. Here's what else you'll need for your car:
Turbocharger: Pick which size and trim turbo is gonna work best for your application and goals. A regular T3 turbo is usually good for 250WHP, a t3/t4 up to 400WHP, and a t4 400+ WHP... I'd recommend a ball-bearing garrett turbo, a nicely sized t3/t4 turbo, not too large or too small TRIM/AR size.
Downpipe: Again must be custom for your turbo/manifold choice. A flex pipe and o2 bung are nice to have while creating a downpipe -- although not necessary.
Wastegate: Choose a wastegate size (also what psi spring you'd like to run) according to application such as amount of air flow and psi from turbo.. This is if you have a turbo that's externally wastegate powered..
Intercooler: Choose either a FMIC (Front Mount InterCooler) or Side Mount Intercooler. FMIC is the only way to go really for efficient cooling..
Blow off valve: This is actually an optional (but very recommended part). Doesnt really matter which one you choose. Pick a sound you like. Some people like to use ebay or cheap BOV's, but if it fails, you can hurt your turbo -- so don't really cheap out.
Fuel Management: One of the most important parts on your turbocharged car. I would highly suggest running a programmable chipped ecu or standalone device. I'd suggest Hondata or Crome..
Fuel Pump : You will probably need an upgraded fuel pump to support the added fuel consumption. Can be either internal or external -- I recommended the Walbro 2550LPH hi pressure fuel pump kit from injected-performance.com on H-T's marketplace for sponsors
Injectors : To support added air induction, more fuel is need... hence bigger injectors. Buy size according to application.
Map Sensor: Stock maps can only read up to ~10.63 psi, if you plan to go higher upgrade to a 2bar or 3bar map sensor.
Intercooler Piping: You can buy a ic piping kit, but usally will always take some modification to fit your exact application.. I believe ebay has some kits that have flanges made for the greddy BOV's for around $150 shipped
Couplers/t-bolts: You will need silicone couplers to bind the two intercooler pipes together as well as t-bolts -- I don't recommend screw clamps for anything other than for your intake pipes for your custom Short Ram
Oil drain/feed lines: Every turbo needs oil, so you must buy an oil feed and drain line kit. Stainless Steel lines are HIGHLY recommended. Rubber lines will get hot and can/will burst.
Vacuum Manifold: Not required but recommended to help organize vacuum lines and allow for good vacuum sources. I'd use Golden Eagle's Vacuum manifold.
Gauges: although not required, it's highly recommend so you can keep some status of motor operation. boost/oil pressure highly recommended
07-23-2010, 12:17 PM
#11
Moderator
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 724
ahaha 500+whp
thats way to much for a near daily driver.
the only reason i didnt like the k motor (its still an amazing engine) is that there are sooo many modifications you need to do to make it fit.
yea ive read that between the 96 spec and 98 spec is a minimal difference.
THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR IMPUT
its very appreciated. i love talking about cars i always learn so much.
so turboing my stock block with stock internals how much psi do you guys think is safe.
probably around 6-9psi right?
-You don't choose the psi, you choose how much hp you want to make and based on the turbo you're using and how well the engine is tuned, that wil determine how much boost is required to make the power you want to make. There is no set number for boost and hp because every setup is different.
im just guesstimating but boosting my stock block would cost around 2-3 thousand?
-Depends on the components used. But yeah, probably more if you have someone else do the work. Set aside $400-$600 for tuning.
how much bhp would i be up to?
-Didn't you already sat you wanted 220whp?
heres a list of what a parts list for turboing my b16. please correct it if im wrong just stole it from honda tech lol
TURBO BASIC FAQ:
Firstly, an exhaust manifold comes from an NA motor, so you'll need a turbo manifold. They come in many forms, Ram horn, top mount, log manifold, etc... Log manifold is by far the cheapest and it spools really quickly -- plus it's quite reliable if build right the first time. Here's what else you'll need for your car:
-Log manifolds are the cheapest and most reliable turbo manifold. Just make sure if you will be using an external wastegate to get a manifold with the wastegate flange at or very close to the center of the collector on the manifold (just above where the turbo bolts on). Some log manifolds have the waste gate flange off to the side on one of the exhaust runners, this will only by-pass the exhaust from one of the cylinders and will not give properly consistent boost control. It can even cause boost creep which is BAD. So make sure you get a good manifold.
Turbocharger: Pick which size and trim turbo is gonna work best for your application and goals. A regular T3 turbo is usually good for 250WHP, a t3/t4 up to 400WHP, and a t4 400+ WHP... I'd recommend a ball-bearing garrett turbo, a nicely sized t3/t4 turbo, not too large or too small TRIM/AR size.
-Do the research and math to figure out which turbo will be best for your engine. Properly sizing the turbo is VERY important.
Downpipe: Again must be custom for your turbo/manifold choice. A flex pipe and o2 bung are nice to have while creating a downpipe -- although not necessary.
Wastegate: Choose a wastegate size (also what psi spring you'd like to run) according to application such as amount of air flow and psi from turbo.. This is if you have a turbo that's externally wastegate powered..
-You'll also want a good quality electronic boost controller, controlled by the ecu and set during tuning. DON'T use those cheesy manual boost controllers.
Intercooler: Choose either a FMIC (Front Mount InterCooler) or Side Mount Intercooler. FMIC is the only way to go really for efficient cooling..
Blow off valve: This is actually an optional (but very recommended part). Doesnt really matter which one you choose. Pick a sound you like. Some people like to use ebay or cheap BOV's, but if it fails, you can hurt your turbo -- so don't really cheap out.
-BOV's Are absolutely NOT optional! lol You MUST have one or compressor surge will kill your turbo. DO NOT just choose one that sounds the way you like. The sound of a bov is irrelevent and NOT important. The bov must be of high quality and function properly above all else. It must open quickly the moment the throttle is lifted and vent all charge pipe air quickly and cleanly with NO chattering. Chattering is compressor surge and WILL kill the turbo.
Fuel Management: One of the most important parts on your turbocharged car. I would highly suggest running a programmable chipped ecu or standalone device. I'd suggest Hondata or Crome..
-Should say "engine management". This is the key factor. Without a proper tune, tuned by a very knowledgeable person, your engine is useless...lol.
Fuel Pump : You will probably need an upgraded fuel pump to support the added fuel consumption. Can be either internal or external -- I recommended the Walbro 2550LPH hi pressure fuel pump kit from injected-performance.com on H-T's marketplace for sponsors
Injectors : To support added air induction, more fuel is need... hence bigger injectors. Buy size according to application.
Map Sensor: Stock maps can only read up to ~10.63 psi, if you plan to go higher upgrade to a 2bar or 3bar map sensor.
Intercooler Piping: You can buy a ic piping kit, but usally will always take some modification to fit your exact application.. I believe ebay has some kits that have flanges made for the greddy BOV's for around $150 shipped
Couplers/t-bolts: You will need silicone couplers to bind the two intercooler pipes together as well as t-bolts -- I don't recommend screw clamps for anything other than for your intake pipes for your custom Short Ram
Oil drain/feed lines: Every turbo needs oil, so you must buy an oil feed and drain line kit. Stainless Steel lines are HIGHLY recommended. Rubber lines will get hot and can/will burst.
Vacuum Manifold: Not required but recommended to help organize vacuum lines and allow for good vacuum sources. I'd use Golden Eagle's Vacuum manifold.
Gauges: although not required, it's highly recommend so you can keep some status of motor operation. boost/oil pressure highly recommended
thats way to much for a near daily driver.
the only reason i didnt like the k motor (its still an amazing engine) is that there are sooo many modifications you need to do to make it fit.
yea ive read that between the 96 spec and 98 spec is a minimal difference.
THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR IMPUT
its very appreciated. i love talking about cars i always learn so much.
so turboing my stock block with stock internals how much psi do you guys think is safe.
probably around 6-9psi right?
-You don't choose the psi, you choose how much hp you want to make and based on the turbo you're using and how well the engine is tuned, that wil determine how much boost is required to make the power you want to make. There is no set number for boost and hp because every setup is different.
im just guesstimating but boosting my stock block would cost around 2-3 thousand?
-Depends on the components used. But yeah, probably more if you have someone else do the work. Set aside $400-$600 for tuning.
how much bhp would i be up to?
-Didn't you already sat you wanted 220whp?
heres a list of what a parts list for turboing my b16. please correct it if im wrong just stole it from honda tech lol
TURBO BASIC FAQ:
Firstly, an exhaust manifold comes from an NA motor, so you'll need a turbo manifold. They come in many forms, Ram horn, top mount, log manifold, etc... Log manifold is by far the cheapest and it spools really quickly -- plus it's quite reliable if build right the first time. Here's what else you'll need for your car:
-Log manifolds are the cheapest and most reliable turbo manifold. Just make sure if you will be using an external wastegate to get a manifold with the wastegate flange at or very close to the center of the collector on the manifold (just above where the turbo bolts on). Some log manifolds have the waste gate flange off to the side on one of the exhaust runners, this will only by-pass the exhaust from one of the cylinders and will not give properly consistent boost control. It can even cause boost creep which is BAD. So make sure you get a good manifold.
Turbocharger: Pick which size and trim turbo is gonna work best for your application and goals. A regular T3 turbo is usually good for 250WHP, a t3/t4 up to 400WHP, and a t4 400+ WHP... I'd recommend a ball-bearing garrett turbo, a nicely sized t3/t4 turbo, not too large or too small TRIM/AR size.
-Do the research and math to figure out which turbo will be best for your engine. Properly sizing the turbo is VERY important.
Downpipe: Again must be custom for your turbo/manifold choice. A flex pipe and o2 bung are nice to have while creating a downpipe -- although not necessary.
Wastegate: Choose a wastegate size (also what psi spring you'd like to run) according to application such as amount of air flow and psi from turbo.. This is if you have a turbo that's externally wastegate powered..
-You'll also want a good quality electronic boost controller, controlled by the ecu and set during tuning. DON'T use those cheesy manual boost controllers.
Intercooler: Choose either a FMIC (Front Mount InterCooler) or Side Mount Intercooler. FMIC is the only way to go really for efficient cooling..
Blow off valve: This is actually an optional (but very recommended part). Doesnt really matter which one you choose. Pick a sound you like. Some people like to use ebay or cheap BOV's, but if it fails, you can hurt your turbo -- so don't really cheap out.
-BOV's Are absolutely NOT optional! lol You MUST have one or compressor surge will kill your turbo. DO NOT just choose one that sounds the way you like. The sound of a bov is irrelevent and NOT important. The bov must be of high quality and function properly above all else. It must open quickly the moment the throttle is lifted and vent all charge pipe air quickly and cleanly with NO chattering. Chattering is compressor surge and WILL kill the turbo.
Fuel Management: One of the most important parts on your turbocharged car. I would highly suggest running a programmable chipped ecu or standalone device. I'd suggest Hondata or Crome..
-Should say "engine management". This is the key factor. Without a proper tune, tuned by a very knowledgeable person, your engine is useless...lol.
Fuel Pump : You will probably need an upgraded fuel pump to support the added fuel consumption. Can be either internal or external -- I recommended the Walbro 2550LPH hi pressure fuel pump kit from injected-performance.com on H-T's marketplace for sponsors
Injectors : To support added air induction, more fuel is need... hence bigger injectors. Buy size according to application.
Map Sensor: Stock maps can only read up to ~10.63 psi, if you plan to go higher upgrade to a 2bar or 3bar map sensor.
Intercooler Piping: You can buy a ic piping kit, but usally will always take some modification to fit your exact application.. I believe ebay has some kits that have flanges made for the greddy BOV's for around $150 shipped
Couplers/t-bolts: You will need silicone couplers to bind the two intercooler pipes together as well as t-bolts -- I don't recommend screw clamps for anything other than for your intake pipes for your custom Short Ram
Oil drain/feed lines: Every turbo needs oil, so you must buy an oil feed and drain line kit. Stainless Steel lines are HIGHLY recommended. Rubber lines will get hot and can/will burst.
Vacuum Manifold: Not required but recommended to help organize vacuum lines and allow for good vacuum sources. I'd use Golden Eagle's Vacuum manifold.
Gauges: although not required, it's highly recommend so you can keep some status of motor operation. boost/oil pressure highly recommended
Hope that clears a few things up and answers some of your questions.
Last edited by MPR; 07-23-2010 at 12:54 PM.
07-23-2010, 03:53 PM
#13
Ah Mike stole it away. Lol, but yeah you cannot just say the psi. Different turbo sizes give different amount of power at the same psi. Also if you measure boost at the compressor, you will have psi loss due to intercooler and piping size.
About bovs, Yes absolutely mandatory, unless you run a recirculating valve off a stock car.
Regarding boost controllers, softwares like Neptune and Ectune have the ability to adjust boost within software, but i'd much rather run an AEM TruBoost which is 2in1 boost gauge with digital read out and also a boost controller with different presets and what not.
Otherwise Mike covered it all well
About bovs, Yes absolutely mandatory, unless you run a recirculating valve off a stock car.
Regarding boost controllers, softwares like Neptune and Ectune have the ability to adjust boost within software, but i'd much rather run an AEM TruBoost which is 2in1 boost gauge with digital read out and also a boost controller with different presets and what not.
Otherwise Mike covered it all well
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