dc24me

i want to get a gsr manifold ported locally by someone who knows what they are doing. where can i go?

thanks.

zman

send it out to get extrude honed, or cut and ported, then welded back up.

I don't think theres anyone locally that can extrude hone it for you, you'll have to ship it out to the states for that.

BestodaBest

Don't even waste your time with a GSR manifold; Just pick up a skunk 2. It's equivalent to a Type R's intake manifold, which is the best flowing head available to the B series.

If your looking for some custom port and polishing, or any headwork, contact Gord Bush. Search him on google.

dc24me

what's wrong with a ported gsr intake manifold? i don't want a single runner itr skunk2 intake manifold. it's not the same as a type-r especially when it's mated to a gsr head. the differences between the pr3/p72 head and manifold designs exist for a reason.

BestodaBest

Edit.

dc24me

i think a ported gsr manifold will help get me the gains i want and where. my secondaries are opening up at a little over 5k-ish now, shortly after vtec kicks in. i'm running a basemap with my ctr intake cam.

BestodaBest

What gains do you want, and where do you want them?

Have you consulted a tuner yet, or been to a dyno session so you actually know whats going on?

I'm hoping your not relying on a butt dyno...

nightstick

on a mild motor with stock cams (itr included) a ported p72 im will net better gains than a single stage im, unless its an aebs

Buff4Prez Yo

iTrader: (2)

is it really worth it tho? you'd have to compare costs between that and an aftermarket manifold like the skunk2

BestodaBest

You can easily acquire a Skunk 2 manifold for less then custom manifold work...

Also, bear in mind its CUSTOM. You will not recieve the same results as everyone else. If he happens to take off too much material in 1 runner, he's going to have to cut deeper just to even it out (of course, assuming you take it to a reputable shop).

I'd stick to what works, instead of taking chance. And a P72 IM won't flow better at top end then a ITR. Sorry.

Have you also taken other things into account, such as throttle body size, port and polishing the head, plenum size, etc?

zman

i've made over 200whp on a stock GSR intake manifold and throttle body, so its not really that much of a restriction or poor of a design if you think about it.

The thing I don't like about everyone saying "just buy a skunk2 intake manifold" is that on a GSR they're ----...absolute garbage. I know a bunch of people who've put them on their GSR's, then shortly after removed it and put the stock one back on b/c of how much torque and power down low they lost.
The S2 manifold is just the B16/ITR manifold design reflanged to fit the GSR head. I think dc24me already knows what I'm getting at (and he gets a gold star for the day...lol) but the PR3 head (b16/itr) and P72 head (gsr) have quite different intake runners, the GSR having a straight(er) shot at the valves with a flatter port floor, whereas the PR3 head has more of a curved port floor down towards the valve (I have lots of pictures I've taken over the years of building/tuning engines to back this up). So the skunk2 intake manifold works OK (at best) on the PR3 head setups but doesn't work well on the P72 heads. I've seen this firsthand on the dyno as well.

So what you really have to do is consider what Buff4Prez said, is it worth it to buy a skunk2 intake manifold?.....and not be happy and waste $250+ OR spend the money porting the GSR manifold and actually see some gains....OR buy a manifold that was actually designed for the GSR, i.e. the AEBS.

Don't worry about the porter "taking too much material off 1 runner" b/c where the actual porting gets done this isn't even really an issue. Take it to someone who actually knows what they're doing (not splitfire) and you'll be fine.

Just so you know, there are several manufacturers who use dual stage intake manifolds, nissan being one of them on their 4 cylinder engines. If it was so bad of a design why would honda have used it on the GSR, H22's and even k-series engines?

BestodaBest

Firstly, your taking a huge chunk out of my lunch break :P

The dual stage manifold's concept is to essentially move the powerband from redline, to mid range. When it comes to making a decision between powerband placement, you need to make a decision on what you demand from your car. Are you racing? Circuit? Drag? Or just a fun, moderately powered daily driver?

When you start adding power mods, (i'm assuming he's planning a moderately powered N/A build) the most common choice would be an upper powerband (more often times then not, your taking a corner in 1st or 2nd, at moderate to high rpms). So where do you want to start developing the majority of power? 4000rpms, or 6000rpms? This is the whole concept behind Vtec.

The S2 IM is not simply reflanged; there were several design changes. The S2's manifold (in comparison to the stock B18C1 IM) has a larger plenum, and total manifold volume, the throttle body opening is slightly larger, the runners are much shorter, and the diameter has been increased. Now, with the removal of the dual stage system, you've gained a more consistent flow rate, far less air induction turbulence (resulting in better fuel atomization), increased air flow velocity (which improves swirl filling), and an overall increase in volumetric efficiency.

In regards to machinist ---- ups, i've yet to see any of major proportions. I was merely making a point (and i have to agree with you on Splitfire).

Lastly, i've found the dual stage manifold to be more then sufficient; but they should be limited to stock, or near stock vehicles. *Also, the dual stage manifold is used in conjunction with the new I-Vtec systems, hence thier use on K series.

Essentially, it's great in terms of practicality and moderately powerbanded setups, but was ditched for use in the Type R because the single stage system was superior in top end performance.

zman

Right, i'm completely aware of all of this. But the bottom line is, people are NOT happy with the skunk2 manifold and the way it performs, so to me, its not an option. From what I was told (from a reputable engine builder) the skunk2 IM for the GSR was "essentially" a reflanged b16/ITR manifold. In comparison to the b16/ITR design, its really not that different (from what i've seen) and nothing like the OE manifold design.

The reality of it all is, MOST people build, what I would consider mild engines and usually use parts designed for a wild build and don't get the performance they desire and wonder why their skunk2'd out engines don't make the power they thought and hoped it would for the money their spending. I attribute this to skunk2 having better marketing than parts. Just take a quick look on honda-tech. People recommend skunk2 parts without having used them theirselves.
I've used enough skunk2 parts and the only parts I would use (in my own car) is their cams, and even then really only their tuner series cams.

Building engines is pure compromises. You can't have an engine that performs amazing from 1000-5000rpms AND from 6000rpms up. This is why its important (as you said) to consider what you're using the engine for and where you need/want the powerband to be. In an attempt to do both, they compromised a little peak top end power (who cares, peak power doesn't mean ----) for a smoother overall powerband and all around good performance, when building the GSR engine, which they knew wasn't their all out race engine (like the type-R).

To me custom is better than an off-the-shelf part, regardless of the price. Why spend any money at all for minimal gains (well, i guess thats what building a n/a setup is all about...lol), when you could spend a little more money/time/effort doing something custom and have it perform well. Although, i've seen custom parts not work so great, so its really important to have a qualified person perform the work..

P.S. i'm glad I could waste your lunch break....lol :P

dc24me

having a big fat peak number on a dyno sheet to hang on the fridge is secondary.

my integra is a streetcar. i would up give up some top end for more low to mid rpm power which is more usable for merging and passing. if i get a lot of top end, i don't think the ctrs will make anything after 8k. i want to keep it simple for now. i'd like to see a little bit more of the power sooner, like as soon as you downshift.

my daily i want to keep stock, except for the hondata reflash. it doesn't add any peak, but if gives you a lot more usable low to mid end power making the car more fun to drive.

i'm sticking with a gsr manifold, ported or not.

between the cost of a ported manifold it would be about the same as an aftermarket manifold and new air intake.

zman (and nightstick) thanks for the useful information as always and confirming what i thought; i'll let you know if i need a tuning session once it's together.

dc24me

p.s. i found some a few old threads on ht and dh racing that offers this service.

BestodaBest

I'm not trying to give you a "big fat peak number." I'm simply developing a civilized debate, so you can get points from both sides, and make an informed decision. I have absolutely no disagreement with anything zman has posted.

He's posting based on low/mid power, and i am representing the high powerband side of things. if you want, i can just nod along with everything he says, so you can run off to have your manifold ported based on a 1 sided thread. I'm here to shed light on the information often hidden by incompetence, or ignorance.

Zman has been very diligent, and has made excellent points. Thank you Zman.

All in all, i'm sure we could agree that there are other methods that will yield better results, with the same amount of cash, lol.

I'd say an IM is closer to the middle of your "things to do" list for your stock Integra.

BestodaBest

Edit.

zman

Typically top end power requires larger plenum volume and shorter fatter runners, this however isn't the case with power lower in the RPM range, hence why the GSR manifold is designed how it is, and why the IAB's open when they do (5750rpm-ish).

Like I said before, i've broken 200whp with a GSR manifold on a very mild 2L build. 11.5:1 CR, bcrower 2's, stock GSR im/tb, replica header and 2.5" exhaust. On a sub 8000rpm engine this manifold is good, it will produce the power quickly but peak/plateau around 7500rpms, which is fine and will work well with dc24me's setup, by the sounds of it.

IMO the problem with the GSR manifolds is that people usually don't have the right ECU to control the IAB's properly, so they just stick them open, or remove them completely, basically defeating the purpose of the whole IAB system. You can add the IAB feature to a non p72 ecu (p72 ecus are kinda rare and fetch a premium at importers and on the boards), which most people don't know. I've added the IAB components to p75s and p28s now.

dc24me

i'm sorry i didn't find your information very helpful. i posted asking where i can get an intake manifold ported locally and made it pretty clear i was not interested in a single stage manifold or hearing why the single stage manifold is better and the gsr sucks. the only thing positive you had to say about the gsr manifold was that you loved how it sounded. you mentioned nothing about honda's differences in the head design and the theortical advantages or disadvantages of each as well as actual on hands experience and application.

and then you asked me this.

it should have been clear what gains i want without straight out saying "want usable power for a street driven car" based on what i posted earlier. by asking those questions, i feel as though you were taking me for a complete 'tard.

i've spent enough time on the internet trying to distinquish between valid information, claims and arguements, and irrevelant misinformation.

if i was being a dick, sorry.

BestodaBest

...Another good chunk of my lunch break :P

The P72 manifold is indeed designed around the basis of creating power at moderate rpms. My main arguement is why settle for the stock manifold, when its been proven time, and time again that a ITR IM flows significantly more air, at higher velocity, with minimal turbulence?

The name of the game is Volumetric Efficiency. The easier it is for air to enter the combustion chamber, and the time it takes, proportionately determines quantity of air inhaled. Hence, affecting the amount of power your engine can produce.

Why would you want to limit your maximum power below your safe, stock redline? On a build like the one you've used as an example, you honestly don't feel more OVERALL power could have been had, should've the redline been increased, and powerband shifted higher into the rpm range?

It's all about compromise; why beef up your mid range, when you can have a steady curve that builds to redline?

BestodaBest

Edit.

BestodaBest

Flow Velocity, Flow Capacity, Flow Quality:
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...sp?ArticleID=4

I/M Runner Size Calculations:
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...?ArticleID=466

I/M Measurements:
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...ArticleID=1163

IM Differences (B18A, B16A, B18C5, B18C1):
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/di...g+Common+Topic

B19C1 Flowbench:
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/di...g+Common+Topic

Polished Ports:
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/di...g+Common+Topic

B18C1 / B18C5:
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/di...g+Common+Topic

B18C1 Maximum Flow:
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/di...g+Common+Topic


These are just threads i have bookmarked; there are still plenty more on Honda-Tech, Team-Integra, Honda-Acura, etc.

Now to enjoy whats left of my lunch break...

zman

To me its not about maximum power so much as maximum reliability and longevity. I've had the setup in my daily driver now for almost 100,000kms. Its still just as strong as the day I put the motor in my car, the compression test and leakdown test results say so.

The engine I used as an example wasn't mine, it was a car I tuned for a customer. I had no say in the build and feel more peak power (a word I hate...lol) could've easily been made with a different manifold/throttle body combination. I was simply showing that good power can be made with the stock IM even on a moderately built engine. It had stock rods/rod bolts and was a 84.5mm x 89mm build so keeping a "stock" redline was important. I think the higest we took the engine was 7800rpms or 8000rpms, the power was still holding well until then. There were many things I would've changed about that particular build, but it was definately budget based and the guys daily driver. So power throughout the midrange was important to me, what good is a street car that has to rev to 9500rpms before it makes good power?

My mother taught me to play devils advocate, to help see both sides of things. If I did that to every thread I read, I could make a full-time job out of it. I do appreciate someone playing devils advocate to help the mass see both sides. I have obtained my knowledge by firsthand experience putting engines together and tuning, not surfing the net (not saying there isn't lots of good info out there, but reading will only teach you so much and not saying you don't have any firsthand experience either, or putting you down at all, just for arguments sake...lol). I've found out over the years of doing this stuff, that what theory says doesn't always prove to be true once you've put the parts together and gone to the dyno.

Thanks for the links BestodaBest, looks like i've got some good reading material for when the wifes pissed at me for playin devils advocate with her....lol...she hates that, but I can't help myself.

BestodaBest

I'm just happy there's someone else out there to be my advocate.

Your right, i don't have hands on experience with high power N/A builds. Most of my experience either comes from what i learn up here (which is mostly theory, engineering basics, design, and mainly diesel engines [trust me, diesel's suck ***]), from what i've learned on my own car, or from my friend's build's. I have a keen interest in reading, and try to obtain as much factual information as possible from the resources on the web, books, instructors, or intellectual/experienced individuals such as yourself.

All in all, i hope everyone who's been following this thread has learned something. And for the love of God, don't just bump random technical threads... challenge the information provided to you.

dc24me

it's 2008, almost 2009. on the internet, we have something called the search function. there is a wealth of information easily found on the internet.

if your opinion wasn't so biased you wouldn't be posting this right off the bat

when my original post was this.

i didn't get any useful constructive information from you and then you got butthurt claiming i was rude, dragging me back into the conversation. if it goes on a tangent, that's fine, but why the ---- were you trying to sell me on a skunk2 or single runner manifold then? shouldn't it be obvious that peak power isn't a real concern? if so concerned about peak, i'd leave the cai extension on.

what am i denying? i'm not denying anything. i already thought about the skunk2 manifold before. i do not want a new manifold for my setup. i know the differences between the two and where online to find the info. you try to give me advice, but completely ignore what i posted.

please stop giving advice.

zman

actually, time and time again, cars I tune make more power with a short-ram intake. I find CAI's produce humpy torque curves in the low to midrange area on 1.8L and 2L setups.

dc24me

noted.

BestodaBest

Edit.

zman

how come almost every informative tech thread on here, TCC and ---- goes to ----?

black_ac_gsr

iTrader: (3)

it's all good to each his own, if you buy a skunk2 they have done there research obviously and have had sufficent power gains on the dyno with diffent setups and have a prety decent product. Having said that the gsr manifold has the 2 stages to optimise low end torque with the long runners and top end with the short ones, i personally have never met anyone who has ported the manifolds larger runners only removed the butterflys. Maybe it will increase top end and flow better with the port but its difficlut to find someone to do it and for a decent price, and the maniflod would have to be bench-flowed to make sure there are gains. I know of someone that is in oakville who ported and polished my head and clould probably do your manifold or at least advise you if its worth it or not bacause he has built many setups for track cars and is a reputable race car builder. I myslef have changed from the gsr to a jg edelbrock IM but my car is turbo and i needed that larger throttle body opening, lager plenum and runners.

dc24me

make up your mind...

you did make me think, especially after reading your posts above. i didn't need to spoonfed nor did i ask. i believe the gsr manifold will work for my application as clearly stated by others in this thread, including yourself in your inconsistent posts. (see above)

lol!!!

nightstick

cuz there is always an ------- somewhere ready to make an idiot of himself on damn near every inforamtive thread

BestodaBest

Agreed... I've solved my end of the problem.

DOHCnoTEC

im with zman, he knows his ---- and is just tryin to help with power and like he said reliability. he knows his ---- and is someone i woulkd definatley take my car to any time.

his name is zman for a reason, its cause he's the "MAN" Lol.

zman

actually, its because my name is Andrew Zelinsky, its a nickname i've had my whole life....but thanks...lol