Project_VTEG

I tried searching for this topic or something like it and couldn't find it, sorry if it's a repost. But seeing as how this season is over, I need to make plans for next year. I need some opinions on whether it's better to swap in a motor, say a GSR, or maybe even a Type-R (I know the cost is roughly $6000), or build on my LS. Which would be better both cost-wise and performance-wise?

Buff4Prez Yo

iTrader: (2)

i say do LS/VTEC with cams and gears

WildoutWhiteGSR

Your really gonna have to search this one out.

Each of them offer different pros and cons.

What you should really be looking for is.

-powerband location...where you want to make the most power
-tranny gearing
-transmission landing points
-machine shops that are willing to do the machine work
-call around for pricing to see, which is cheaper to give you a better view on actuall cost
-are you staying n/a or turbo

FuzzyLS BRO

i'm building my LS motor right now...and by the time i'm done, i'll have spent 1/2 of the money on rebuilding my LS motor and it'll be able to smoke a GSR and maybe take a type R.

Platinum Playa

A type R...come on bredran lets not put the chicken before the curry.

Big Hairy Gino

I highly doubt that.

96GSR

it's on now...haha

RRRex

I've seen some really impressive LSVTEC setups. The advantage is that you can build one cheaper than buying a Type R. The advantage is price and stroke. The LS crank has a longer stroke than a Type R so more torque and similar hp. The problem becomes when you rev them high the rod speed become rediculous. A lot of people swap rods and pins for stronger ones and sleeve the block for added protection. I've heard arguments saying revving does more damage than boost on a motor. I run a B20 VTEC which suffers from the same issues. But being so much cheaper and more powerful than an ITR I decided to go that route. Since the actual difference in stroke is a mm or just over I'm not that worried about it. Though it doesn't sound huge, it is when you consider the increased speeds of the rod. A close ratio ITR LSD tranny is also a must. LS gearing is garbage and peglegging your power is dumbass. An ITR tranny is a bargain when considering the cost of closing up stock gearing and adding an LSD. The other option is boost.

For 6 grand and good tuning you'll get more hp and torque than any NA setup. Issue then becomes tuning is stupid important, more nose heavy causing increased understeer, reliability of maintaining more parts, more maitenance (oil breaks down at 270 degrees and turbos run at like 1000 degrees - the oil that its fed then gets dumped back into your oil pan that feeds your engine), plus the heat at the track becomes outragious to keep reliable. The plus side is the power, and if you keep your engine stock, LS motors can be had for a couple hundred bucks - making your turbo more important then your motor. You actually treat it like a wear item. For $400 bucks and a weekend in the garage, you back running again.

Used ITR motors are a high risk buy. They've all been bitch-slapped. Unless you know for sure it's a good one. Same goes for GSRs though less so. That said a good ITR or GSR is your most reliable way to go. But buyer beware!!

Project_VTEG

Hmm..wow that's a lot to take in, but all very helpful. Fuzzy, you say your LS will take a GSR easily, I'm wondering what should be done to get that kind of power out of an LS? Maybe I can build, then boost later?

FuzzyLS BRO

guy, jeff beat a type R off of spray (i think) and even tommy (guys...i need gassss), someone who can't drive that well, beat a type R with the 403 setup.

FuzzyLS BRO

well it all depends on what kind of budget your on. you can do bolt-ons, flywheel and clutch and will beat stock GSR's, with cams, upped compression,engine management, bolt-ons and an LSD you can hang and possibly beat stock type R's (straight line).

FuzzyLS BRO

here's some dyno's for ya:

you can see a baseline run of a stock type R (red line) putting down 161.8hp and 117.8tq



here is an LS putting down 155.2hp and 126.4tq. this LS motor was equipped with the following:

-Apexi N1 catback
-straight pipe
-crower 404 cams
-DC header
-intake
-cam gears
-MSD ignition
-accel wires



now with this setup on the LS, the crower 404 cams would be over camming the motor with the stock compression however it still made 155.2hp (less than the type R) and 126.4tq (more torque than the Type R). now if you were to bump compression in the LS to equal or greater than the Type R, engine management and port/polish the head, then i'm sure that you will get alot more than a 6hp increase to overcome the stock hp of the Type R.

Project_VTEG

So do you think it will cost up to or more than $3000 for that LS setup? I already have the headers, catback exhaust, and intake.

JEFFOS69

Yes I beat a type R with my old car off spray. I had more then just cams but yes.

WildoutWhiteGSR

Fuzzy your forgetting the biggest advantage that the type r has.

It's short gear tranny

WildoutWhiteGSR

Fuzzy your forgetting the biggest advantage that the type r has. It's short geared tranny.

It'll be close



It should cost you that max.

Project_VTEG

Sounds reasonable. One last question, sorry if I seem like a pest, and thanks for everyone's input. If I follow that setup, would it be alright to boost afterwards? Or should other changes be made?

WildoutWhiteGSR

Boosting all comes down to the tuner ability to tune.

Most will tell you 11:1 compression is too high. I don't think it is, it's just harder to get a good tune out of it and prevent detonation. So yes if you really wanted to you could boost on that setup afterwards.

If you have that in mind, make sure you buy stronger parts for your build up of the engine. ie forged pistons, eagle rods, sleeve the block

Project_VTEG

Okay thanks a lot. Now I know what to do in January. Thanks for everyones help.

born2board69

iTrader: (1)

I am looking into a similar build for myself for next season. Hoping to go with
Skunk2 IM
Bigger TB
Crower cams(403s?) with adj cam gears
New valvetrain
Header
High flow cat
(Already have catback)
and of course tuning.

On this setup i am hoping to be able to take type r's:P
Actually my goal is to be able to take my buddys 1989 Dodge Caravan....with 18lbs of boost(not kidding)

FuzzyLS BRO

by the time i'm finished my build..i'll be suprised if i spend over $2000.

JEFFOS69

You'll prob need a bit more to do it. You'll def need an R tranny or at least an SIR tranny. I had an R tranny with LSD in my car.

born2board69

iTrader: (1)

yea i forgot to mention the tranny.

Project_VTEG

Okay, given what I have already, (Cold Air Intake, HKS Catback Exhaust, DC Sports 4-1 Ceramic Headers, NGK Plugs/Wires) what would be the next most logical step? Cams? Or work on the intake manifold? I'd like to continue to increase my cars horsepower and torque with each step.

WildoutWhiteGSR

If you want to do a complete rebuild, find another ls motor for cheap.

If you want to continue on your motor now. Grab the valve springs, retainers and cams.

FuzzyLS BRO

^not to mension something to tune your ecu with.

RRRex

I'd buy the ITR tranny and a good set of tires before doing anything to increase hp. I can recomend a few good tough semi streetable R-compound or a really aggressive street tire. You'll get more practical power out of those 2 mods than you could a set of cams. You need a lot of hp to decrease lap times at the track - road racing and drag. I know mostly road racing. The way a lot of us Honda racers figure it is it takes 15 hp to drop a second at shannonville or Mosport. Whereas you can gain over a second with better gearing and LSD and a couple seconds with a really good set of grippy tires.

Your mods have freed up a few hp but you could be the most use of your existing mods with traction and gearing. That's how I run competitively against supercharged V8s and turbo rotaries with only 185hp and 145lbs of torque in a light weight, properly sorted out Honda.

The next logical step after the tranny in IMO is a B20Z swap. They sell for 900 bucks and you can easily get 400 for a working LS motor. (you'll need to keep your IM and TB) Torque increases by 10+. At that point you can think about boosting it, or staying NA.

BOOST:

At 900 bucks it makes a cheap motor to boost and the extra displacement is better than your LS. The Z is higher compression than the B20B, but the advantage is you can run less boost to make the same power.

NA:

If you go NA, you're options are LS cams which bolt right in - as do all LS performance parts - or do a VTEC swap. I run the vtec swap. Expect to pay 1000 for a good VTEC head - or buy a b16 for 1200-1500 and find a buyer for the shortblock. Tuning is super important as is getting someone with experience to assemble it for you. I have names of good people when you're ready.

But like I said - that's after you shorten your gearing with an ITR LSD tranny and tires then build up from there. I know someone selling a B16 LSD tranny - a friend of mine is buying it but if he backs out it will be up for sale.

Project_VTEG

Okay...well I'm not starting until January, so let me know by then if the tranny is still up for grabs.

DaGizzer

So to compare prices, a complete GS-R set up installed will cost ??? and all that list of those LS mods + install and proper tuning will cost ???

My g/f LS was a dog, either boost the LS or do an N/A setup on a VTEC motor.

Smartass pHO